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Pencil Neck **Joined:** 06 Mar 2004 **Posts:** 93

I copied this from a thread on body building forum for strength.

I am thinking about trying it. You see anything you wouls adjust?

Workout A:
3x5 Squat
3x5 Bench
1x5 Dead lifts
3x6-8 Weighted Pull ups
3x8 Weighted Dips

Workout B:
3x5 Front Squats
3x5 Press
5x3 Power Cleans
3x6-8 Weighted Chin ups
3x8 Stiff leg Dead lifts

Olympia God **Joined:** 23 Mar 2005 **Posts:** 7412

That's basically the Starting Strength workout with extra exercises and only one day of back squats.

The actual starting strength workout is...

Workout A
back squat 3x5
bench 3x5
deadlift 1x5

Workout B
back squat 3x5
shoulder press 3x5
power clean 5x3

Now, strictly for strength, you really don't need to change this. The only adjustment I made to it is pull-ups instead of deads in workout A and deads instead of back squats in workout B. If you want to follow that template I would do either pull-ups or chin-ups once a week (not in both workouts), the dips on the day you don't do pull-ups or chins and drop the sldl all together.

So something like

Workout A
back squat
bench press
deads
dips

Workout B
front squat
shoulder press
power cleans
pull-ups/chin-ups

_________________
There are few things graven in stone, except that you have to squat or you're a pussy - Mark Rippetoe

Pencil Neck **Joined:** 26 Oct 2009 **Posts:** 6

The workouts include the basics, and the simpler the better when looking for building mass. Are you only working out twice a week? Is time a factor? These two factors would help decide whether it's good or not. I feel this routine will help you maintain your current mass. From my experience that kind of routine will only make gains if you have high intensity and weight. Otherwise you'll be spinning your wheels.

Personally, I would like to see an additional set for each exercise, and higher reps (8-12). I like to incorporate pyramid sets also. I'm able to spend a solid 45 minutes on just weight training, and I train 4-5 days a week. I include all of these exercises in my routines, but I split days between Chest/Triceps, Back/Biceps/Abs,Shoulders/Calves, and Legs.

We all have our own opinions. This plan is just fine and as long as you enjoy it and keep up the intensity you can't go wrong.

Olympia God **Joined:** 23 Mar 2005 **Posts:** 7412

First, this is a m-w-f workout, alternating between A and B.

Second, isn't high intensity and weight a given?

Third, this is a strength workout so higher reps are not the correct protocol.

Fourth, the Starting Strength program is from Mark Rippetoe, one of the biggest names in strength coaching.

_________________
There are few things graven in stone, except that you have to squat or you're a pussy - Mark Rippetoe

Olympia God **Joined:** 03 May 2006 **Posts:** 3086

bigstabile wrote:

First, this is a m-w-f workout, alternating between A and B.

Second, isn't high intensity and weight a given?

Third, this is a strength workout so higher reps are not the correct protocol.

Fourth, the Starting Strength program is from Mark Rippetoe, one of the biggest names in strength coaching.

word!!!

_________________
The deadlift....it’s very hard to imagine a more useful application of strength than picking heavy shit up off the ground!

Pencil Neck **Joined:** 26 Oct 2009 **Posts:** 6

First, I realize it could be done MWF, alternating A&B. But is he doing that? That's why I asked him how often he goes to the gym to do the program.

Second, No! It's not a given that he does it with intensity. If I knew Hopper from other posts and that he is an avid lifter then I would have made the assumption. I see guys at my gym everyday who completely lack intensity.

Third, There are tons of strength training workouts that include 4 sets, many of them from M&F. Also, 8-12 reps is not considered "high," that's very average. "High" would be over 12 in the range of 15-20 reps. I've had great success using low reps with high weight in order to break a platue, but not much success over an extended period of time.

Fourth, I never questioned the source of the program. I simply gave my opinion, which he asked for, and based it on my experience over the last 5years that I've been lifting.

Fifth, YOU'RE A GIMP!

Olympia God **Joined:** 03 May 2006 **Posts:** 3086

DirtyDeeds wrote:

First, I realize it could be done MWF, alternating A&B. But is he doing that? That's why I asked him how often he goes to the gym to do the program.

Second, No! It's not a given that he does it with intensity. If I knew Hopper from other posts and that he is an avid lifter then I would have made the assumption. I see guys at my gym everyday who completely lack intensity.

Third, There are tons of strength training workouts that include 4 sets, many of them from M&F. Also, 8-12 reps is not considered "high," that's very average. "High" would be over 12 in the range of 15-20 reps. I've had great success using low reps with high weight in order to break a platue, but not much success over an extended period of time.

Fourth, I never questioned the source of the program. I simply gave my opinion, which he asked for, and based it on my experience over the last 5years that I've been lifting.

Fifth, YOU'RE A GIMP!

Dude, I'd go easy on calling someone a gimp when you give advise like that. Starting Strength by Mark Rippetoe, is done as it says on the tin, nothing more nothing less, thats how and why it works....and 8-12 reps is most definitely high for a proper strength program.

_________________
The deadlift....it’s very hard to imagine a more useful application of strength than picking heavy shit up off the ground!

Olympia God **Joined:** 23 Mar 2005 **Posts:** 7412

DirtyDeeds wrote:

First, I realize it could be done MWF, alternating A&B. But is he doing that? That's why I asked him how often he goes to the gym to do the program.

Second, No! It's not a given that he does it with intensity. If I knew Hopper from other posts and that he is an avid lifter then I would have made the assumption. I see guys at my gym everyday who completely lack intensity.

Third, There are tons of strength training workouts that include 4 sets, many of them from M&F. Also, 8-12 reps is not considered "high," that's very average. "High" would be over 12 in the range of 15-20 reps. I've had great success using low reps with high weight in order to break a platue, but not much success over an extended period of time.

Fourth, I never questioned the source of the program. I simply gave my opinion, which he asked for, and based it on my experience over the last 5years that I've been lifting.

Fifth, YOU'RE A GIMP!

Are you serious?

You're correct about the first 2 points. However they don't pertain much to the topic. I'm assuming m-w-f and I'm also assuming he's working out hard. If not, that's his problem and no routine is going to "work" anyway.

Great, 4 sets, 5 sets, 3 sets. Who cares? This program is based on mostly 3 sets of 5 reps. 8-12 reps is not the best rep range for stricly increaseing strength. You will get stronger no matter what rep range you are working in, but it's a proven fact that low reps are the optimal way to train strictly for strength, simply because you are lifting heavier weights.

This program is based on stuff from Mark Rippetoe, Bill Starr, Lon Kilgore and many other legendary strength athletes and coaches from the 60's, 70's and beyond. I think it's great that you have a whopping 5 years of training experience under your belt, but you've got a lot to learn my friend.

_________________
There are few things graven in stone, except that you have to squat or you're a pussy - Mark Rippetoe

Pencil Neck **Joined:** 26 Jul 2009 **Posts:** 397

DirtyDeeds wrote:

First, I realize it could be done MWF, alternating A&B. But is he doing that? That's why I asked him how often he goes to the gym to do the program.

Second, No! It's not a given that he does it with intensity. If I knew Hopper from other posts and that he is an avid lifter then I would have made the assumption. I see guys at my gym everyday who completely lack intensity.

Third, There are tons of strength training workouts that include 4 sets, many of them from M&F. Also, 8-12 reps is not considered "high," that's very average. "High" would be over 12 in the range of 15-20 reps. I've had great success using low reps with high weight in order to break a platue, but not much success over an extended period of time.

Fourth, I never questioned the source of the program. I simply gave my opinion, which he asked for, and based it on my experience over the last 5years that I've been lifting.

Fifth, YOU'RE A GIMP!

do yourself a favor, click logout. Erase the website from your favorite. then never come back. you are allowed to get back once you do your homework.

_________________
Not actively surviving is passively dying -Ori Hofmekler

He who gains a victory over other men is strong; but he who gains a victory over himself is all powerful. -Lao Tzu

Pencil Neck **Joined:** 26 Oct 2009 **Posts:** 6

I do accept advice and criticism, and I'm not here to make enemies. I honestly hope he does great with the program. I shouldn't have implied in the first post that the program won't work.

I wanted to offer my experience with a very similar program I did 2 years ago for 8 weeks. I wasn't happy with where I was after that time, so I changed my program.

Olympia God **Joined:** 23 Mar 2005 **Posts:** 7412

Here's the thing. There's a reason Bill Starr's 5x5 program, and it's many variations, have been around for 30+ years. It's because they work. Whether or not they worked for you is irrelevant because you are most certainly in the minority. Then again, that also depends on what you put into it and what your expectations are.

I'm not trying to be your enemy and I'm not even trying to argue with you because there's no point, it's not even a debate. I just wanted to point out to you that some of what you said is way off the mark.

_________________
There are few things graven in stone, except that you have to squat or you're a pussy - Mark Rippetoe

Olympia God **Joined:** 21 Nov 2004 **Posts:** 4661

DirtyDeeds wrote:

I do accept advice and criticism, and I'm not here to make enemies. I honestly hope he does great with the program. I shouldn't have implied in the first post that the program won't work.

I wanted to offer my experience with a very similar program I did 2 years ago for 8 weeks. I wasn't happy with where I was after that time, so I changed my program.

Well, there are a lot of unanswered questions, so let's be fair.

FIrst, what TYPE of STRENGTH is Hopper looking to develope?

If it is ABSOLUTE strength, then doing pyramid sets at 8 reps is pointless. Lifting a weight at 8 reps won't help you left a heavier weight at 1 or 2 reps.

Powerlifters go for this type of strength, they have no reason to go much beyond 3-5 reps. However, they use periodization to increase intensity over 8-12 weeks. So even though the reps don't change, there is an increase, a gradual one over time. THe point of this is to build up a neurological adapatation to strength....which is how you actually build strength.

Now Louie Simmons and Westside and some other enlightened PL'ers work in FAST reps to develope other facets of strength...this is because PL lifts are supposed to be listed as fast as possible, but the sheer load of say Squatting 500lbs means it will APPEAR slow, but I guarnatee that he is lifting it as fast as he can. So it's important to work in some fast work. That's where you get into tension loads and go to higher reps so that 15 reps explosively might take around the same time as 5 reps with a heavier weight.

Of course the other kind of strength means you a trying to increase you 5rm, 8rm...whatever. Charles Staley's EDT training or even Doggcrapp training work on the principle of increasing a load within a given time frame. Weight moved within a measurement such as time.

For strength, Pyramids are outdated and not effecient at all. Small little pyramids are fine...but they way most people use pyramids are GOD AWFUL for strength purposes. It leads to fatigue.

The last thing you want to do is fatigue when you are doing strength. THe goal of a strength workout is to work as heavy as possible AS OFTEN as possible.

Olympic level athletes, whether Powerlifters (bench squat dead) or "Olympic Lifters" (clean and press, Snatch, Jerk) workout 5-7 days a week, doing the same lift 3-5 times a week! But they began their periodization cycles sometimes below 50% of the one rep max!

There are certain truths that seem to work for absolute strength.

1.) Using an A-B split
2.) Using Periodization
3.) Using Wave Loading
4.) lifting as OFTEN as recovery allows.

Professional PL'ers and Oly lifter DO NOT use pyramids. There is a reason. They fatigue the CNS too much. Burn too much glycogen. Work too close to failure.

_________________
"appearance is a consequence of fitness" -Mark Twight

"Strong people are harder to kill than weak people and more useful in general." -Mark Rippetoe

Olympia God **Joined:** 21 Nov 2004 **Posts:** 4661

ALso, Hopper if you are not going to compete in a Powerlifting meet anytime soon, I recommend doing the following subs:

Front Squats for Back Squats
Trap Bar Deads for conventional Deadlift
Shoulder Press for Bench Press

A:
Front Squats
Power Cleans
Weighted Dips

B:
Trap Bar Deads
Shoulder Press
Barbell Rows or Weighted Chins/Pullups

_________________
"appearance is a consequence of fitness" -Mark Twight

"Strong people are harder to kill than weak people and more useful in general." -Mark Rippetoe